Season 2 Ep. 11 // Your Past Doesn't Control Your Future

Season 2 Ep. 11 // Your Past Doesn't Control Your Future
[00:00:00] Bryan: Welcome to season two episode 11 of amplified marriage. Today, we have two special guests with us, Ben and Jen ward. We are having a conversation about a messy path to a healthy marriage. What that looks like
Welcome to another episode of amplified merits. I'm Brian, Natalie, wherever you are, whatever you're doing, have a seat stop, whatever it is put on your phones. We are going to have an amazing conversation today with two very special people. 
Natalie: That's right. And in case you missed our episode, last time we talked about, is it permissive to be dismissive?
Is it ever okay to dismiss your spouse's feelings, uh, in the moment during an altercation or a confrontation or just plain old communications? So we gave you some, uh, telltale signs or 
Bryan: when you're going to start recording a podcast, 
[00:01:00] Natalie: that's we kind of dove in to give you some telltale science in some ways.
To combat that. So if you missed it, go check it out. 
Bryan: So today we have two guests with us. This is 
Ben: Ben and this is Jen 
Bryan: ward. Absolutely. They are, uh, two of our friends and we've got to know them a little bit better over the last or actually the last couple of years. Uh, and so they own a company called.
Opulent productions are videographers productions.ca opulent productions ducts. And so, uh, Ben, uh, he grew up in a Christian home. He is from the whack. That's what we call it here. 
Ben: Smelly whack, the smell he wants. I saw some people know it, but we kind of lived upside. Up on the Hill, so you didn't get the smell.
So that's all. Yeah. 
Bryan: That's where I've been going to, um, uh, Ben men, uh, he's traveled to many countries. He's been around, he plays music. Um, he has [00:02:00] musically toured with the band. And he came back to the Oakenoggen and just started actually a different career. So he traded the music career to run heavy equipment and has worked in construction and in the mining field, uh, for quite a long time oil fields, oil fields, and he loves music and is currently working on completing his pilot's license.
Fabulous. How's that going? 
Ben: Good. It's a challenging lash push to really get everything kind of finished up and consolidate all the lessons, all the things you've learned, all the emergency procedures stringing altogether, where it's muscle memory, and you're not trying to recite it. And just, you have it drilled into you just react and you know what you need to do in that instance.
So that's, 
Bryan: that's really cool. Jen is from Alberta 
Ben: originally. We won't hold 
Jen: that against her. We gave that
Ben: we use indoors. Yeah. 
Bryan: Um, and so in 2019, she has, uh, she spent some time working in addictions and counseling and things like that. And she changed that position to start as an executive [00:03:00] assistant position is what you're absolutely at now. Opulent productions, actually, they left both of their full-time positions to start this company, opulent productions.ca.
We got it right this time. And so they do. Drone videos. And inside a show, the insides of homes and real estate, they took on two large churches this year. One, they completely filmed beginning to end of what they have their Christmas program and then with our Archer. So when an Allie and I attend, they took all of our sort of good footage and made it look way better than I could have ever done.
And so we are so very grateful for all that they have done there. And so, uh, The other thing is, is that Jen, she loves to paint. She is very 
Ben: creative painter, 
Bryan: very creative. We've seen some really great stuff. And what we really want hold against her is that she's a maple leaf. 
Jen: She tried to get 
Ben: me to leave it out.
She's like, Oh, you did put it in there. Well, I'm a Canadian. So I [00:04:00] know see it all makes sense though. 
Jen: Don't put that. I'm 
Ben: proud of your team right now. Right 
Bryan: now, there are two of the top teams 
Jen: in the new North division, which is probably a blessing for the leaf. So you don't have to play. 
Ben: Yeah.
Bryan: Uh, we're really glad to have you on, on the podcast today. Um, the conversation that we've been leading to, and if you've listened to the last a couple, it's really been, there's a theme, there's a theme. And it's really both the rawness and the openness of being in a relationship and the actual benefits.
And I said, even before we started recording this, I wished that Natalie and I. Where they, where they are at five years, I wished that's where we were at five years. Uh, we were, uh, falling apart at, uh, two years, started patching it together at five. And so, um, they have a really great strong relationship, but they've based it around, um, vulnerability, vulnerability, [00:05:00] the rawness, the openness, without hiding things from each other.
And so we just wanted to start in with Satan. Thank you so much for being here with us. Yeah. 
Jen: Thank you for having us. We're honored to 
Bryan: be here. It's great. Going to be a great conversation today. So tell us how you two met. 
Jen: Do you want to go first? Okay. Yeah. So, um, I also was like, I was just baptized in 2015, so I was, uh, not from a Christian home or anything like that.
And so I just started attending a new church and I, uh, needed to, you know, meet some new people and there was a young professionals group. Uh, that the church had just started. And, uh, I was a bit reluctant to go. I didn't really know anybody, but, uh, decided to, to go and check it out and see if I could meet some new friends.
And, 
Ben: uh, yeah, but when you went, what you said afterwards, it was like trying to keep people away after 
Jen: boys. 
[00:06:00] Ben: And I was inevitably one of them from my side of it. Yeah. It was kind of similar situation where. 
Jen: I wasn't looking to meet anybody. We'll just put it that way. Yeah. 
Ben: And I wasn't either. I was actually asked to go to support a friend to the same young professional group, but two weeks prior, my mom was all.
Trying to have a conversation with me about like, Oh, well, all these girls from my work there meeting these great guys and they're getting married and stuff. And they're all from these young professional groups, it's like, you should try and find one of those. So two weeks later, when a friend of mine, she was like, Hey, can you come with me to this young professionals group?
I just, I don't want to go by myself. And so I went to a supporter and a kind of the back of my head. Yes. It was like, okay, well, reluctantly obedient. Trying to fall off. God was leading me this way. And like 
Jen: long story short, we both didn't want to be there. We didn't know each other. Well, 
Ben: I brought a book cause I planned to just go sit and hang out and just read 
Jen: so to go and meet people.
Yeah. And, um, so we, it was like a [00:07:00] games night or whatever we were playing games. Yeah. And, uh, you were playing Jenga. I didn't. And like, There. I don't know, there was a new hall, it was loud and it drew my attention. And then you like infiltrated the game I was playing and 
Bryan: so-so hold up. Was that, was that intentional?
Ben: Yeah, definitely. I knew quite a few of the guys there. Cause I played on worship teams to some of them seen some from teen challenge that are in the church and stuff too. So I was like, Oh, we're playing. Played a couple of games and I'd won or nothing, but then it was like, Oh, it's just like, let's get into this.
You know, let's have fun. Make this like just Epic, loud and obnoxious. We're just having way too much fun playing Jen, like Jenga, just making a mess all over this table. And so soon as that tower falls, everyone's kind of like what's going on. Right. Who's 
Jen: breaking stuff. Hoping to get. My attention, which I didn't know.
Yeah, 
Ben: no, cause I, I, I seen you there. I didn't recognize this girl. And I'm like, I'm knew quite a few of these people. And so I was like, [00:08:00] wonder what church she goes to kind of in the back of my head. And so I kind of like snuck my way into the Dutch blitz table and I'm like, Oh, somebody just left. So I'm like, all right, well I'm out for this one.
I already won one. So I'm going to quit while I'm ahead kind of thing. And sneak over to the Dutch blitz where God decides to teach me about humility. I guess I was just, 
Jen: Whoa. So bad at the game and I wasn't very good. I just learned how 
Ben: to play and I I'm so competitive. And so I was just like, 
Jen: yeah. And so like, I was chirping him cause he was really bad at it and like, Inside.
I'm kind of like, why have you so mean to this guy? Like, I don't even know him. And so I felt like a jerk after, cause I'm like, he's not very good at this game, but yeah, we had a good time. Cause I didn't know it was fun, but we didn't really like, we never really actually it was like, Hi. So no, 
Ben: it was all kind of like passive conversation over the game and the loud.
Yeah, because she kept chirping me and stuff. So I thought [00:09:00] she's being like, ah, good try. And so I was just like, all right, I blew it. I left to go sit and chat with the guy that, uh, played bass with. And so we're sitting on the couch to kind of break up into their little. Groups after like, Hey, if anybody likes sports, go here.
Anybody likes food? Everybody likes to poke doors. I was already in the sports room. So I just 
Bryan: thought you weren't scoping Jen out. 
Jen: I like ended up going to where he was. Yeah. And he was like, Oh no, you 
Ben: should come. Yeah.
So I thought I was like, Oh, maybe, maybe I got through somehow my charm or something. 
Jen: Maybe like. He likes sports. That's cool. Like, but we, again, we never really had like a face, 
Ben: not at all, but I kept looking over trying to see if you're checking me out. Cause I was checking you up. Yeah. 
Jen: And then, so that the evening ended and you had gone home, 
Ben: went our separate ways.
I ducked out pretty early because again, I thought I bombed it. I was like, all right, well, Yeah, this just reminds me of why I'm not chasing girls. 
[00:10:00] Jen: Yeah. So then, um, I had gone home. There was like a Facebook group or whatever that was kind of everybody that was in the, in the group that had been there. I guess I saw it totally like looked for him on.
Like the page. Cause I felt like I need to apologize for my behavior. 
Ben: And I got home and my roommate at the time, he's like, how's it going? How was the young professionals group kind of snarky? And uh, I was just like, Oh, just jokingly. Cause we watched the big bang theory at the time. So I was like, Oh, I met the future Mrs.
Howard Wolowitz, you know? And he's just like, Oh, what, who is she? And I was like, I don't know. Yeah. 
Bryan: You didn't even know her name? No, I didn't 
Ben: know you were tripping him and you didn't even didn't know each other at all. Then I figured she came back over and I'm like, maybe, I don't know. I, I spent, I don't know how many minutes trying to figure out how to like.
I don't want to just send a friend request. That's [00:11:00] so cheesy and dumb. I'm like, I'm gonna at least send a message. Then I was like, how do you write a message like this here person? I 
Jen: don't know, like as he's contemplating his life choices. Yeah. I was like, I was creeping his page and I was like, wow. Like this guy is actually like really intriguing.
Like he. Like he flies planes. Like he does music. Like he hunts, like, you know, like he seems like he's like got a really interesting life. Like he's got it together. Like he's got lots of friends. Like I was so intrigued and I'm like, okay. I think like all of a sudden my, you know, a request and it seems so cheesy, but then like, no joke.
He sent me a message, like right after that. And it was like, Hey, you know, it was like, good to meet you kind of thing. And then we had only like one friend in common at the time. 
Ben: That was one of the reasons I was like, Oh gosh, well we've probably got some other friends in common, 
Jen: maybe. So it's usually what I do.
Like, I'm like, Oh, well, if you know, maybe we know some of the same people. Yeah. Well, we didn't, [00:12:00] except for one person, the one person that we knew you knew through church, I knew through my. Past, how do you say that? Like, I guess, um, of attending like a treatment center. So, um, he's he asked me, he's like, Oh, how do you know this person?
And I like sat there going like, Oh my goodness. Like I have to tell him, I went to like rehab right now. Like, you know, like I had a choice and it was like, okay, I kid. Like totally brushed the thing off and be like, Oh, you know, I just know that person or like, no, I'm going to be like real with him. Like, I have nothing to hide.
I have nothing to like, like it or leave it kind of thing. Like, I didn't really have any like, nothing to like, lose at that point. Really. It felt like I was like, you know, I'll, I'll see how he handles it because lots of people like, they'd be like, you know,
um, and. So I, [00:13:00] I told him and he was like, and then he opens up and says, you know, Oh my, my brother went through teen challenge and like, our conversation totally started like, Oh, I didn't scare you away. I like, are you sure? Yeah. And so we just kind of started talking after that and, um, super casual, like we talked on the phone, like it was a while before we actually like hung out.
Face-to-face yeah. And it was 
Ben: just so refreshing because finally somebody was not trying to just. Give you the best version, kind of like tell you what you wanted to hear. Yeah. And it was refreshing because it was organic and real like, Oh, somebody that has depth in like isn't afraid. She's obviously like I've been around it from my oldest brother and then other family members have struggled with it.
And then helping out with teen challenge and getting to know some of those people. So it's like, I know the character, I think that somebody has to have to go through that. And that kind of, for me automatically was like a, Hey, pay attention to this kind [00:14:00] of thing. And yeah, it was hard to kind of understand completely what it was, but 
Jen: yeah.
Yeah. So we just started. Yeah, mostly kind of getting to know each other. Like, I wouldn't even say we really like started dating, dating initially. Like I, we mostly were just getting to know each other, I guess. And then 
Bryan: how long, how long was the process before it was official before you started dating? 
Jen: It wasn't long.
Cause like we had some like serious talks, like early on. Like I, 
Ben: I think because we went in it's like, yeah, it was almost like trying to call each other's bluff of like, Oh, you're real. Oh, you're real. And I like, 
Jen: we were lik w w we had a point where we thought that. We were like, how are we similar? Yeah.
Like, how are you just seeing that? You like the things that I like and like weird stuff like that, just to get like my attention. And he thought that I was doing that. Like, but we [00:15:00] actually just genuinely had this connection, but we both were kind of like trying to fight it a lot. Yeah. I think, yeah. So you had said that.
Natalie: You were not looking for relationship. And so now you find yourselves in this place of like connecting yeah. Relating to each other. Um, what was your thought process of like, okay. I'm, I'm all in, like you said, I've got nothing to lose. Did it ever cross your mind, like I'm going in because. What, what I was, um, bringing to the table before in previous relationships, just isn't cutting it anymore.
We're not doing that anymore because that just had a volatile, um, What's the word I'm looking for, like of all the tile response. Yeah. And then you meet Ben and you're like, well, it's, I'm all in. And so take it or leave it all of me. Yeah. What was your thought process there? Like how did it switch from, I'm not interested.
I'm not looking for a [00:16:00] relationship to now. This is someone that I really could see myself being 
Jen: with. I can say 
Ben: it didn't really cause it went and then it jumped back and then wait, and then jumped back. So you're trying to like 
Jen: fight yourself. It was cause I, I really didn't, I didn't want to have feelings.
Like I felt like it was like one of those things where I was really starting to like, be comfortable with who I was and I'd been in some really ugly past relationships and. But he was, it was so refreshing just to have a conversation with him that I didn't know that we would end up really. Like developing that strong of a connection so quickly.
So I would say I was all in, because I really honestly kind of thought that I was scared. 
Ben: I'm 
Bryan: just going to dump this out 
Jen: anyways. So my feeling, yeah, like I have a really messy path. So that 
Bryan: being said, you said just said you, you had a bit of a messy past, how did that affect the relationship [00:17:00] moving forward?
And then, then we'll get to later on, as we talked about this, how does, how did it affect your, your marriage? So start with, how did it affect the beginning part of your relationship? 
Jen: Oh, that's good. Um, well I 
Ben: think it kind of put us in a touch and go state cause it was like progressing and then it would like take some ground back.
Cause you're like, Nope. God's calling me to focus on me and figure out my identity. So it was like friends zone, but like, not really, but so it kind of like was push and pull a little, 
Jen: but I was also dealing, I think when we first got together, like I had to be like, I have like court dates that I have to.
Cause I was, I took some women to court, um, and like that was like early on. And so it was like, there was so much stuff, I think from my past that was like, tried to disqualify you or I did. Yeah. And, but. It was, it was refreshing in the sense that I didn't [00:18:00] ever feel judged by you for going through what I went through.
And you were like all ears when it came to, like, I was enticed the days that were like really bad or, um, you know, and I think I dealt with a lot of like different triggers and stuff when we first got together to just things that. I, 
Ben: I think both of us, cause like there's things that happened that made me think I'm like, well, I'm gonna just kinda jumping in a hundred percent.
Cause I'm an all or nothing person too. Right. And so I'm like, am I just repeating my patterns here again? And so like, it kind of, it affected me just as much where I would kind of like, just pull back and then it's not that I would play games, but like that tendency that tries to want to come well, I'm just not gonna answer that text for awhile.
And just trying to 
Jen: just like. Sort of trying to like sabotage relationship before it started. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, but we just kept pursuing it and I think we just kept like getting to know each [00:19:00] other and that with there wasn't really anything that was going to stop that I feel like. 
Bryan: So even just for the listeners, I just had a thought is that sometimes you see people that have had history, like sometimes the history is rough.
Yeah. Um, they get to this place where they, they settle for someone who just happened to be around instead of waiting for the right person. Yeah. So they settle for this guy that, well, he doesn't judge me too much. And they essentially set themselves up for years and years of, of tough marriage or tough relationship.
And you were just kind of pushing the boundaries with him. If I'm understanding, pushing the limits, just to see how far he's going to go before, he's like I'm done 
Jen: and he never did it. No. And I think I had gone through so many, well, not so many, but a lot of relationships before that weren't ever built on a conversation of like, Truth.
Really what it comes down to it, it was, everything was either sugarcoated or this is my best [00:20:00] self, whether it was me or the other person, it was your Instagram. So it was a hundred percent. And even to other people, it's like, Oh, you guys look like the greatest couple. And it's like, you have no idea what goes on.
Right, right. Right. So when we would, like when we would chat and we would talk, um, I just never felt like there was any type of. Guard. Yeah. In a sense, like it 
was 
Ben: times where you'd put a wall up, but I learned from all the stuff that I tried to read and study being the best version of myself, because I was really good at having the wrong relationships.
It felt like, so God gave me a blueprint and reverse of what not to do. That's my perspective is kind of like, okay, well, There's a wall here, something don't try and climb it. Cause that's my instinct. I want to fix it and get closer to you. I'm trying to get closer to you get, get over the wall, but the wall is there acknowledged the wall.
She now doesn't need it wall. Cause I'm respecting her wall. Right. And then all of a sudden it's like, Hey, well [00:21:00] you can come in. Yeah. It's kind of what I found is like, Listen to what you were dealing with wide was a wall for you. And when I kind of was like, Oh, okay, that makes sense. I can see it now. I had a different place of understanding of not how to, like, it sounds bad, like how to act around you.
But like, it was basically calibrating to the areas where it was like a deficiency of something from before. And I was trying to be conscious of that to like give you the room to. Work that stuff out or not push you to be like, you've gotta be like this, or you gotta be 
Jen: churchy or me, I think also work through a lot of things.
And I think we both worked on like, past things that we didn't even know were issues that came up while we were dating. Have like, um, I hope this is okay. I share like of being of you being like. Cheated on. And so then having that insecurity of [00:22:00] like, um, should it happen again? Yeah, right. Like a suspicion or jealousy.
So that was something. And then me, I think, I didn't know what it was like to be treated well. I guess yeah, by, by a guy. I really, I didn't know what that looks like. I thought I did until I honestly, until I met Ben and like, he still opens the door for me to, I've never opened the car door. Like just little things like gentlemen, things like he was raised.
Right. Um, bless his mom and his dad. Um, but, um, Things like where I didn't feel like I deserve to be treated the way that he would treat me. So it was like, I would almost like self sabotage it a little bit. Yeah. That makes sense. And test the waters a little bit. Yeah. 
Natalie: Can I ask, like your previous relationship was really toxic?
Yeah. Um, and so there's a safety for you and correct me if I'm wrong in that [00:23:00] communicating. Not physically communicating yet, but just over the phone or over messenger or however texting, how was your comfort level when it actually came to physically? Connecting with Ben face-to-face and then how, how did you navigate?
Because guaranteed, someone's listening, that's in a volatile situation like you were, um, it was coming out of it is coming out of it or, or this just might be what they need to hear to get the strength to take that step that you did. 
Jen: Yeah, I think. I think the biggest thing for me was that, um, take the time to like, know what your comfort level is too.
Like we could have hung out from day one. Um, but I think it was a mutual thing that. I, I really wanted to get to know him first. And it was like a, I don't want to say like a safety. Right? I think that the Creek, [00:24:00] the first walk that we went on. Yeah. Cause it's like, 
Ben: you could have red flags to like this guy I've never really.
Gone anywhere with just, I think 
Jen: actually I've never, nobody knows where 
Ben: there's real and I'm like, Oh, is this what people do on dates? I don't know. It's been so long. I've been 
Jen: trying to focus at that point. I think I had. I trusted who you were and your character. I think from the conversations that we had.
And, but only, only you're going to know that like, that's between like what, I guess for me it was, I knew I was ready to, to say, meet him like in real life. And even though I knew, like I had essentially met him through church before, even though I was trained to him when we were playing cards, um, you know, I knew.
I think that it was time to like hang out in, in real life. But we'd had, we talked on the [00:25:00] phone for hours and hours before. 
Ben: It's one thing about up North, which was awesome is I had so many hours alone with my thoughts. So I thought I've worked out a lot of things from my past in here and in here, but I'd never really worked them out.
Now here with Jen, where rubber meets the road with a person. Now, are you going to react the way you did before? Or are you going to feel jealousy before? What are you going to do when you feel it? And so when we came to like going to walk together, it was really difficult in some ways. So for somebody that's listening on the other side of their person that they're interested in is.
Got walls or has boundaries that they're trying to figure out what's okay. What's not okay. What they're comfortable with. I would say, and I don't want to use a hunting analogy, but you got to study and know the animal that you're going after. And it sounds, I'm not trying to say it's prey, right? There's some truth in like, I was just observing you because your body language was different.
Like kind of, I was 
Jen: so [00:26:00] guarded. Yeah. And so 
Ben: again, that's me. Trying to be responsive to that and give you the space to go roam around and just. Take photos. Yeah. Just be present and experience something with you. And instead of trying to like, have an encounter or some sort of date that like 
Jen: setting incidents, like very like platonic at that time.
Yeah, too. Like, I mean, I always was concerned like anytime I. Where'd you meet a guy that like, Oh, he's just going to try and make a move, you know? Right. Yeah. And that's all, so 
Bryan: that wasn't, that wasn't the pattern that you had. People just, they did, they tried to immediately, it was just trying to take advantage of, and so then Ben comes along and so, because, because that was your history and he didn't where you like, what's wrong with 
Jen: me.
Never that's. I really, I was so relieved that there was people out there like him that out. 
Ben: That's awesome. That's awesome. And my, like my past was [00:27:00] the opposite where there was something wrong with me for doing that. Right. Because I would respect 
Bryan: cause it's it's culture, it's culture versus like it's the world's culture.
It's the culture that's out there. It says, dealt with thought, then 
Ben: you're. Yeah, right. Trying to date in Christian circles and that wasn't working. And then you think you get a bright idea. Let's date outside Christian circles. At least that's what you see is what you get the real, cause it's not like games, that's just stupid thinking, but it was one of those things where I had to walk into it and be like, this is really weird.
Like now I'm the bad guy for being the good guy. And it was confusing because then it's like, do you compromise your character, your values, what you're thinking or. Yeah, it was just a difficult struggle. So like I said, I got the reverse blueprint of how to not do this and 
Jen: yeah. Can we talk about vulnerability 
Natalie: and how meeting someone new?
And, um, at this point you said it was fairly platonic still. How [00:28:00] important was it to you? Jen, coming out of what you've come out of, uh, to be vulnerable towards Ben. Whatever the costs, like how much did you ever, were you ever afraid of how much information to share or you were just, I'm an open book? 
Jen: Um, there was, I think some areas where I felt like I wanted to make sure that he understood, I guess, kind of where you came from.
Yeah. A little bit. And I think I, it was scary to just like tell somebody to, especially as somebody who I. Was an Alec interested in, and I didn't want him to run over. Yeah. You'd have 
Ben: to talk all around it before really bringing it out and then would just be kind of like, are you gonna tell me or not? I 
Jen: think in some ways, yeah, it definitely was.
And like, I think I always wanted to be vulnerable about my situation and like I was, I didn't really want to leave anything [00:29:00] out. Yeah. It was like, I had done that enough and it was ugly. And I just like, this is, this is my life girl. Like this is it. And so I think. I think I was open to sharing a lot more with him, but he also really made this space for me to feel comfortable, right.
To just talk openly about, um, you know, my past. And I mean, I have a past with obviously like addiction as well as very toxic relationships. And so it, it was very, um, I guess I did, I have to be very vulnerable, but he made it easy, I think. Yeah. And over time to just be able to share whatever. And like, we don't have anything.
There's not much, he doesn't know about my past now. 
Ben: Right. Can we tried to like, share that very open? I'd try and like, yeah, this is so you don't have to feel like you're the one that's throwing it out [00:30:00] there. I'll put it off first. Cause it's like, can't change it, but. Knowing, I think how to make the space is something that I would say is it's not easy to do sometimes, but it's important because we're both real people.
We both have real stories. And I think at the core of everybody, we have that longing to be known. And that's, I was so acutely aware of that from being up North. Cause I was like, Incredibly lonely at times where it's like you just long for companionship where you're alone for so many hours in a machine, in a cabin.
Yeah. So I was acutely aware of that. Longing for someone to know me. Like wholly, not just, Hey, it's been the guy that flies planes and plays drums. Like, so no one for all the things I did and not for who I 
Bryan: was. So you said a couple of times, I'm just being real. So just share out of your own words, why is it so important to be real in the relationship to be open and honest?
[00:31:00] Ben: Yeah. It's the fiber of who we are. Like you can't fake something like it's going to take. 10 times as much energy to fake and pretend something or hide it to cover it right then to take a breath and take a risk, maybe to share it. But the reward for having somebody that knows everything about me and like has got my back, like that's the best feeling.
And that's good out of that is like, that's what we want. We want to be known. And I think you can't be known unless you're. Comfortable. And you're aware of all those things in you, who you are. And some of that isn't pretty and Instagram worthy, but there's no sites for, you know, that other stuff 
Jen: you had, you had made a 
Natalie: comment.
We were talking about dressing it up to look nice. That's that's great. Except that underneath all of that, it's still raw. It's still [00:32:00] broken. Yeah. Um, and then you had said that flesh is messy and dirty and that the fundamentals of your relationship or relationships in general are built on a raw honesty.
And we couldn't agree more, right? 
Jen: Yeah. 
Ben: Salvation crucifixion is messy. You know, salvation is usually messy that you got to sacrifice. You got to have some sort of place in your life where you can be okay with the mess, because that's why I need Jesus. And so it's like, okay, doing that. And then taking that modeled into your relationship.
I need to be real with you otherwise. I can have secrets or I can have a separate life. And like I was, so again, so many people at North, they come home and they see the wife and kids, and then they act a completely different from how they did up there. Right. And that's part of being in a way where they don't have those things, those [00:33:00] connecting them.
So you can be untethered or something, but. I think it's, it's fake and it's gotta be exhausting and you see a lot of brokenness that comes out of it. Yeah. 
Jen: But I think too with us having that foundation of being real and honest, I think for us, like moving forward in relationship, if we have any conflict or anything like that, I think.
There's a lot more conversation that we can have with each other in regards to like, how do we deal with this? And because there's not much that I'm uncomfortable talking to him about. And I think that in our relationship, when we do end up, you know, having a conversation about that, it's like, let's, you know, let's talk about 
Bryan: it.
So even that that's a really good, because something that we've we've run into when we've been coaching couples is. Is oftentimes the two sides when, when we're listening to them, aren't so out [00:34:00] there, it's not, they're not hiding a second life. They're not hiding a porn addiction. They're not hiding anything or hiding an addiction behind it.
They're hiding a gambling problem or a chocolate problem. They're not hiding those things. But these two, these things that we have that are separate, become so shameful to us. Yeah. And we fear having to speak to our spouse about it. Cause I love, I love that you said that fully known, like people we want to be fully known and fully loved.
Ben: I think when we were talking to that, there was a quote that you said never trust a warrior with a battle scars. It's the whole thing is like, yeah, you spend all your time shining your armor, but you've never like been in a fight. You never trust somebody like that because it's like, Oh. You're not going to be able to defend.
Bryan: So in, in your relationship, has there been times where you've gone to each other and you're just like, this isn't a big issue, but I'm feeling like a little bit of like a trigger, like a trigger or you're feeling a little bit of shame and it's like, when [00:35:00] you're bringing this up, how did you get past that to be able to speak about 
Jen: that?
Ooh, that's good. Um, do you have anything coming to mind a little bit? Like, I think. Um, I don't know how to like word it, but I think a lot of the times, like we will have something come up and say, it's a trigger. Yeah. And we'll try and. Uh, I guess express it, but sometimes it's not always best received still because sometimes it's like a lie too.
It's like, Oh, I was thinking this, or like, this came up for me and I know that's not a reflection of your character, but that's something that like, clearly I need to deal with. Right. And so then I, I want to like bring it out to say it, but I don't want to give it room to grow. Right. Because. It's like something that like, Hey, this is like a me issue, but let's have a conversation about this.
So, you know, what's going on, right. 
Natalie: Because your mood or, or it's going to change, it's going to [00:36:00] change. It's not a reflection on 
Jen: you. Totally. Yeah. Take 
Ben: each thought captive. But the obedience of Christ to the word of God. Right. And like that scripture didn't mean much, but when we started, I think dating more seriously, that's where that stuff started coming out, where it was triggered, where it's like, guys, we have that weird thing where we want to like compare, right.
That's a big comparing match of some sort. And so you gotta be like, okay, I'm not going to fall into this and then feel insecure about everything else around it. Or am I going to be like, No. So I have to take that captive and like a good example. Um, like I said, from being cheated on stuff, you can be jealous.
You can be suspicious and yeah. So. I didn't want to act that way towards her because she had given me no reason to do that. 
Jen: Yeah. Challenging too, because I think like I've always been friends with the guys I've never really been kind of a girly girl, like right. [00:37:00] You know, like I think like, I just have been kind of like one of the guys, and so I have more guy friends than I do girlfriends and, but like platonic guy friends.
And I think so even sometimes, like that would be. 
Ben: It was a choice. It's as simple as when you look at it at face value, you have a choice right now because you gotta be honest with yourself. Right. That bothers me. She has this many guy friends. What is it about the guy, friends? You don't even know them.
Right. So, so when I looked at it and was just like, do I choose to feel that way? Or is it like, is it because of this? Yeah, that's really good. 
Natalie: And were you able to communicate 
Jen: that with Jen? Yeah. Yeah. And I think like anybody that I was like still friends with too, like you've. Like my best friend growing up, who was a guy and like, you've met him kind of like you guys talk on Facebook, we've developed our own relationship 
Ben: and I have no problem with that.
Like it's I think, but it depends on how I told you too about like how I had like a [00:38:00] check system of if the guy's dismisses it. Of me, like the, sermon's not hard with guys when they have intentions. 
Jen: It's really great. I, and I haven't spoke to that person actually since that. Yeah. Cause I 
Ben: was like, I'm fine to meet them because I think it's important for me to walk out my roommate.
Cause like, yeah, I'm good in here. But then now you're like, Oh, well here's a guy friend from her past and it's like, okay, jealousy and security. These all can come up again, unless you're going to. Take the reins on it. Yeah. And it had that opportunity and the guy like barely looked at me barely 
Jen: and I noticed it right away.
And I was like, I was uncomfortable. Like he didn't even 
Ben: know. Interesting. And then I told her after I was like, so you're 
Jen: like, I'm not really down with that guy. Right. Well, that's really good. Yeah. It was interesting. And it was like, you know what? That I'm. 
Ben: That's fine. I don't want to be too like aggressive in that because he doesn't know me either.
So he might be like, [00:39:00] Oh, this is weird. I don't know how. 
Jen: Yeah. But you were my husband. So it's like, if you're going to be my friend, you can exactly be nice to my husband. Right. There was a fair, a hundred percent. So like, if you're going to act like that then. Yeah. So, so would you say 
Natalie: that your communication style is a pattern from your past relationships?
Do you think that that over the years has tried to creep in. And that was something that you both had to really walk through of how Ben, you know, you've been cheated on. And so you've got you, you've already set your heart up a certain way to protect it from having to go through that same thing again.
And so then as you communicate, some of those things tend to come out. How did you guys 
Jen: navigate that? 
Ben: I think it's, it was talking it out. Cause I had to figure it out for myself of what is it that I'm afraid of obviously this happening again, but I think it's more. Making the room for you to be aware of those situations, right.
And then how you reacted. In spite of those things [00:40:00] is what made me feel safe. It's okay. I can trust you with 
Bryan: this. Right. Right. And then you're not reacting to the reaction, like, cause like, oftentimes you can give that kind of information, especially like for my personality, I sometimes react to the reaction.
Like here's the information you reacted poorly. I didn't appreciate that. And then I react to that. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And then, then the circle is now complete into the misery. You've just sealed your own coffee, right? Like, and it, and it doesn't help. I really appreciate the way you too. Um, yes. Say I took responsibility for that, or I dealt with that, something that we, we often, and we've said many times on this podcast, is that in order for you to move forward in your relationship with your spouse, if it's at a Rocky spot, Um, you have to take responsibility for your actions and not what, what they're doing with the spouse is doing with the partners, doing your fiance, girlfriend, whatever it is, boyfriend, you are responsible for you and how you respond.
Yeah. Right. And you said that a [00:41:00] few times was that. Uh, again, going back to Natalie's pattern, talking about the communication pattern, was that a pattern that you had to build or something that you just kind of went into from the dating or did it pop up halfway through and you have to rebuild the pattern?
Did you have to like act some stuff out and start new, or 
Ben: I think it's a bit of both. Like I was the best advice I was ever given was be the man that like your future wife. Deserves, you know, work the best version of yourself. That's another way to say that. That should never stop just because he got married.
It's not like, okay. I made it right. Yeah. So easy to do, do that. And then stop growing and trying to be the best version. Right. It's a never-ending process. So instead of being like, Ugh, More more. I got to change more. You should be like, okay, how else can I change? Like chasing after that excellence? Like we carry that into our work.
And then I [00:42:00] think having that personally set the tone, I think for you, because it was just like, wow. Okay. Because I wanted to bring those things to the table and be like, Hey, I think. This is what's going on on, I don't really like this. I can do better at this, but that's good. 
Jen: Well, and I think we always, like, one thing that we talked about early on in our relationship was how both of us really valued, like personal growth and.
Yeah. You know, self self-checks and assessments and just like, you know, checking your thoughts and being mindful of like what's going on. And we both individually, like we're already doing that. And so I think coming together, it wasn't foreign for either of us to have those like, yeah. Hey, so I was thinking about this or whatever the case is.
And I think that helps us 
Ben: build a mutual Pat, how we did that now together. 
Jen: Now what our relationship looks like, you know, still having now we have like relationship checks. Yeah. So here's 
Bryan: a side question that was not at [00:43:00] all. What we talked about. Can you. Name a pattern that was not toxic, but unhealthy.
And how you spoke to each other, talk to each other, dealt with issues where that pattern you, you discovered that it was not good. And you're like, we have to shift our focus and actually rebuild this pattern to be healthy. Is that enough information? It is. I'm 
Ben: just trying to pick and which one do I go? I have a scenario.
Maybe you can. Chime in with what you think of this. But, uh, this is kind of just in general, too, from being an individual to being a married 
Bryan: man. That's good context. 
Ben: I dig it. So going out and like, Oh, it's a weekend. I have time off. I'm going to go fishing. It's a hobby. It's a thing I do. She loves that about me.
So I thought that was kidding. She does love that about me, but there's a context around that that I was not familiar with. So my habit was I'm going to go [00:44:00] do it so weekends my time. So I would go fish or I would go hunt. And that happened when we were dating, where I just took off and went hunting.
Because that's what it did you get up before everybody's up, get out there and I wasn't answering my phone and this and that. And it caused problems for 
Jen: you. I think at that point when he went hunting and I had no idea, like what was going on and I, I was like, Oh, he's like, ghosting me. Like hard, like dating, dating at the time.
And I later find out, he's like, no, I just went hunting and I just pulled a deer out of the Bush. I'm like, cool. Okay. I'm good enough. Yeah. 
Ben: Cause you were like, I was like 
Jen: super like stoned. I really didn't know how to handle that. Right. I was insecure at that point too. I think that's why I was like uncomfortable with, but then so he, yeah, he.
Wouldn't really like, he would just go do stuff right. As a married man, you'd be like, Oh, I'm going hunting. Or I'm going fishing even as, 
Bryan: even as a married dude. 
Jen: I think it was just, 
[00:45:00] Ben: I just didn't think like, I'm good. You're good. We're good. 
Jen: But like, there was no indication of like, it wasn't like, it was a bad thing.
Like it was just like not enough information for me to be okay. Like, it was kind of like, are you coming home for dinner? And so I get 
Ben: back at 
Bryan: darker flock. Okay. So then, then how did you, how did you work that pattern into healthy 
Ben: communication? Obviously it came to the point of like, Hey, this isn't cool.
And it was a conversation of like, 
Jen: yeah, I, but it also, I think what happened was like, I need to let you know how this actually makes me feel. Yes. Because it's not the situation of you going out. It's not a situation of you hanging out with your friends. It's like, okay, how do I feel. W like, what does this make me feel like?
And it's like, it makes me feel unwanted or I need it, or, yeah. Um, I think that's the key is disrespected. It because you won't let me know what's going on and it's once I think he understood that it wasn't just about, of like, Oh, it's a control thing. She needs to know where I am. Yeah. It was [00:46:00] never about that.
Right. Did you 
Ben: ever think that. Yeah, that when she was bringing this stuff out, cause like you said, we're getting the information, we react to what we're hearing sometimes. Yeah. I think everybody can do that. And it's not the point. The point is that she brought it out when I heard and saw the big picture and could see how it had affected her and us.
Cause it's like, Oh, it's not that she doesn't want me to go. I think the biggest key that I could say maybe for other people is like, what is the root here is the question that we kind of constantly. What's the root cause we can tell when there's tension, you can tell when you're not meshed in a relationship, you can tell when you're not Sankt or something's kind of off.
Right. And so if you can't, then maybe you need to spend a little more time watching and observing your spouse, 
Bryan: hold that thought. But I like that you said that because people are sinked, but sometimes they're in already such an unhealthy pattern that they're out of sync and that's where they've been living.
Yeah. And so they don't even know that they're out of sync, but then when they get in sync for something, they're like, man, this is [00:47:00] amazing. Yeah. I want that. But that's not their normal, their normal is to be out of sync and their exception is to be in sync. Right. Continue on your 
Ben: thought. It might be difficult then to kind of pull back.
So you can't just be like, here's a self check to get, but it could be like, okay, are you having little knick-knack arguments of things where you're constantly not seeing eye to eye, but that could be personality types. You can't say that. Works for everybody, but for us, that was the case, right? Yeah.
Whereas it's like, why is she after me? Like this? Like she never had a problem with me fishing when we're dating and stuff. Right now, all of a sudden it's a, it's an deal, but it wasn't really the fishing at all. And so once I kind of got that out of my head, right. Oh, that's not about who I was hanging out with.
Yeah. It's kind of, you're ticking them off the list of like, what is the root of this? And you're kind of peeling it back, peeling it back and like, The root is I didn't share. Hey, I'm thinking about doing this because we are a team. Do we have anything going on? Do I need to be home by a certain time or whatever?
And like, if you're [00:48:00] uncomfortable with having to be home by a certain time, then maybe you're not ready for marriage. I don't know. 
Jen: That's really all it came down to was like, I don't, it was like, I just want to be. Included. Yeah. And like, I want you to go and you can come home at dark o'clock I don't care.
Yeah. But like, just let me, like, I want to be included. It'd be the courtesy. Yeah, exactly. And even the 
Bryan: decision-making like, just be like, Hey, actually, we had something planned today. Oh, I forgot. 
Ben: That was the key. 
Jen: That's a hundred 
Ben: percent in the decision-making. Cause it was like, it felt like I had to like report.
So it felt weird when I started doing it. Cause I'm like, this doesn't feel normal to me. So I'm 
Jen: like, that's a relationship. Like you should let each other know where you're at, you know? And like, I, then I sorta questioned like, well, am I like controlling? And like, I was like doing self checks out of like, is this unhealthy?
Should I just like, let him go do what he wants? And I'm like, no, I don't think so. That's 
Ben: right. Yeah. And we found a place where we're both mutually agreed. I think. Yeah. Yeah. It's not the fishing. 
Jen: It's not who you with. Right. That was the symptom. It was the [00:49:00] issue. Yeah. And it was just like, let's have a conversation about it.
And I think now any type of plans that get made, whether it's us together, us individually, I don't think there's overly much of an issue. Yeah. 
Ben: It's like, you should never stop trying to self-improve you should never stop trying to over communicate or communicate. Right. That should be wanting to run to you.
Be like, yeah. Hey, what do you think about, well, 
Jen: now that we run a business together, it's even crazier. So it's like we good thing. We dealt with the fishing day trips, like then yeah. It'd be a mess to work together now. 
Ben: So 
Bryan: you guys have, I really appreciate how you've. Kind of explained just your history, the story, how you've made some of those decisions.
Cause you really nailed on pretty much everything we had spoken about. And I kind of want to zero in on something that you said when we were doing the prep, you said something from your past was, and how you overcame. It was used to ask him for permission. Yeah. And, and this is, and [00:50:00] this goes back to some of those, like, the question that we started with or near started with was what are some of those old things that you came into the relationship with, that you did deal with?
Or you, maybe you did, but. Almost reared, their little ugly head. When you started being an, you, you brought that up. And I thought that was such a cool, like, cause it mean people are gonna identify with that one for too. It could just be something else. But how did you, how did you, so explain the story and then how you went past it?
Jen: So in my past relationship, I was very coerced and it was extremely manipulative and. Um, coming into this relationship with Ben, I realized that I had a tendency that I actually didn't really know of until we saw
would, yeah, I would literally like ask him permission for certain things. Whether that be like something minor. Like, is it okay if I cook chicken for dinner? Okay. But it was like in a very like, okay. If I go 
Ben: with my mom, so just 
[00:51:00] Bryan: clarify this, you weren't asking in a conversational hit, not that would say to me like, Hey, is it okay if we cook chicken?
Like a heck yeah. You were asking like 
Jen: actual, like, as if he said, 
Ben: are you okay with my decision to do this? I just want to make sure that 
Jen: that was, yeah. Sorry to clarify. So something as simple as like, like fat, but it was like, not even like, is it okay? It would be like, can I do this? Yeah. Would actually be more how it probably was.
Yeah. You know, 
Ben: and I'm like, can you, cause that was my response. I was getting kind of irritated. I'm like, why are you asking 
Jen: me? Like, why are you asking me for permission? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. And, but it was like very drilled into me that there wasn't anything that I. Was doing in my past relationship was on my own.
Right. Freewill. Yeah. That I was making that decision that it was that codependent that I wouldn't make a decision for myself. And, you know, if it was, it was like, well, can I. Can I go do [00:52:00] this? Is that okay if I go do this, like, and 
Ben: really respond the best because of would be like sarcastic 
Jen: or whatever are you're asking me.
And it wasn't something until he said like, well, I dunno, can you write? And I was like, what do you mean? Like, Oh, I have a choice. Right, right. But it was something that was so foreign to me that I didn't know, that was such a repeated behavior from a past relationship that I had brought into our relationship.
That it was something that I was like, okay. Um, wow. I need to look at this because I'm repeating this pattern and I don't even know I'm doing it. And that's healthy. Yeah, no, it's we joke about it now, but I mean, at the time it was still pops up sometimes 
Ben: though, kind of like, are you asking me, you're telling 
Jen: me, that's what he said, are you asking me?
Or 
Ben: yeah. So I give you the choice of which do you want the old way or the new way? 
Jen: That's, that's really fantastic create that 
Natalie: space, that cultivates that freedom that you have in this relationship a hundred percent, you're not bound by your old ways of [00:53:00] having to do things. And I think. You just, even, even though it was sarcastic and how you initially responded to her of just getting her to think, what do you mean?
Like, this is an option. Exactly. I don't have to ask, like what have I been missing out on? That's what 
Jen: it felt like. It was such a revelation for me was like, wait a minute. I've been like, how long have I been just asking permission? Without, like, I can make these decisions. Right. And it was really, it felt like that.
Right? Like it was really like empowering and it, it seems so silly, but I know there's girls out there that don't even know they're asking for permission for things that like, girl, you can do that. And if you can't do that, you need to get out of that relationship. Like, it's scary to think that I went on like that for a long time.
And it was. It, it, you don't even know you're doing it. Like you have no idea. It gets difficult 
Ben: in relationships where they become like a dependency on one another. [00:54:00] So if I, if I go to the leaves and what do I do without that? Yeah. And so it's like, again, back to the whole thing of like, I want a teammate, I want a partner.
Jen: Yeah. But we always say this to each other too. And it's like, I, how do you work? Yeah. Yeah. A lot. I don't need you, 
Natalie: right? Like I'm a fully functioning individual. Yeah. I, I want 
Jen: you to be here. I want you, I don't want you to go anywhere. I love you. I want to be with you, but I also know that. I'd be okay without you.
However you say that in the nicest way possible. 
Ben: And you're like, it's your turn using 
Bryan: each other a hundred percent. Right. And we said this before Tuesday, if, if Natalie was gonna not be here and she say she died terrible as that is. I'm going to be able to function cause we're not full dependent on each other.
You don't have to really learn how to do laundry and you have to cook my own dinners. That was 
Ben: one that came up too. Cause I thought about that stuff all the time. Being up North it's dangerous areas, driving on some of those dangerous roads. So I've always [00:55:00] kind of. Globally thinking I have multiple scenario played out in my head.
Right. I kind of freaked her out when I do stuff like that. Cause it's just like you already planned, like what you're going to do when I'm dead, 
Jen: I'm going to get a plane. I'm going to push fly. 
Bryan: And I've already decided that I wouldn't, if the world ends, I'm going to Ben's house first, 
Ben: but, but you know what the plane was going to be called Jenae.
Jen: That's amazing. Yeah. Did 
Natalie: you ever. This is totally off topic. Well, not off topic, but off of what we had talked about, did you ever. Come to that place. After that awareness, that Ben brought to you where you had to come to that place, being able to forgive yourself for allowing yourself to fall into patterns that were completely against who you are 
as 
Jen: a person.
Yes. Like I still think I struggle. I think with that of one, recognizing that, like I still have those tendencies sometimes. Um, but [00:56:00] also. Knowing that like, it's okay to like that they still come up like, right. It's 
Bryan: okay. Th there's not like a, um, a shame or a fear attached to it that if, if it does come up, he's going to reject me.
Jen: Right. I would say not, not so much anymore. Um, I, I don't know. I really, yeah. Like I really kind of thought before, like the, he would just think of as like damaged goods. Yeah. And that, that was, you know, something that I had to work through. Right. Then it was like, I, I, cause I do feel shame and I do feel guilt still in some ways, of course, like, you know, I wasn't a model citizen.
Right. Um, so I think in that sense, yeah. It, it sometimes can be. A little bit discouraging, but he's been just going to make room 
Ben: for choice to, and I think by doing that, giving you the choice it's reaffirming. And so that's why it's [00:57:00] important to give you the choice, because when you say I'm telling you you're reaffirming to that thing, you're hearing yourself.
That's good. Given that it builds up that resistance to that tendency 
Jen: of leaning into yeah, exactly. You 
Ben: tend to be like, Oh, can I 
Jen: wait? It'd be like, this is what I'm doing. Well, he's empowering you. It is. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So just 
Bryan: as we kind of wind down, there's two questions. One we talked about, I want, I want, what kind of, how do I say this?
How is it. To be to what kind of healing has happened in you? What kind of a healing has happened in both of you because of having healthy relationship with each other. 
Ben: Ooh, that's good. What kind, what? Or, or 
Bryan: even like the healing that must've happened to go from the healing 
Ben: experience 
Bryan: of toxic, the [00:58:00] toxic relationships that we both had before to come into one that's healthy to even be faced with the barriers of both of your paths.
Like, like, like some challenging things in your past to be able to go from that, to say, I have a healthy. Relationship that I never thought that someone across from me is going to fully know me and love me for who I am. What kind of, what happens to your heart into your life? When that, when that happens?
Jen: Well, I can think of, uh, a few times where, like I just messy cried for like an hour, probably to just weeping over certain things that I was just kind of grieving from my old life. And, um, That we were sharing that like together. That's awesome. And I think power in that. Yeah. Like it was almost, he, again, kind of like encouraged it out of me cause it was so embarrassing.
Like I didn't want to [00:59:00] be just a mess, like, and it was uncomfortable, but it was like, Obviously God's working on my heart right now, and this needs to come out. Like there needs, there is healing going on and I need to, to push it down. That was my, that was my yeah. Kind of thing was just like, Oh, just kind of push it down and you know, don't talk about things.
And so when I was like open to just sharing and I don't even know really what kind of, I think I just shared some of my past and stuff with you, I think is what kind of, yeah. And it just like, I didn't even know when all of a sudden I was just. Having a good, good cry. 
Ben: Yeah. Well, I think that's part of just wanting to know you and like some people just don't ever get the chance to share that real stuff that's in there.
Right. It's just going to get heavier and heavier and heavier because it's all highlight reel, highlight reel. Here's my best parts. Yeah. And the need never goes away for that. Stuff to come out. They might not have a place to do it in a [01:00:00] relationship or a home or a parents or church, even. So it's like, it's a real need.
And I think that's maybe what I was able to do is help facilitate that because I knew the importance of that because God took me through that, trying to prepare for my wife, getting over all my garbage and stuff, where I'm in an excavator, trying to load trucks and. You know, Holy Spirit's coming on me.
I'm just like crying my face off and the radio is going, I'm trying to just drown it out or whatever. Right. And he's working on me. I think my healing was a little different because it wasn't so much the internal working stuff. It was now when you're faced with it in person in life. Right. What is your tendency?
Are you going to, you said your, you said you're good at this. You to, that you have 
Bryan: to show that you're good with this. Yeah. So where the rubber meets 
Ben: the road, walking out you're here. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what we, we said it tonight. I think the verse confess your sins to one another and you'll be set free.
It's like, well, that's a weird verse. Cause. I've [01:01:00] been set free by the blood of the lamb, but what am I being set free from? It's not salvation. That's being set free. It's the shame, the guilt, the condemnation, whatever it is. That's holding me here in that was in the soap. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Writing those scales back to balanced.
So you don't feel the weight of all these shame and all this stuff. Yeah. 
Jen: Well, and then back, I think to that, those little like healing moments, I think over time, um, Like there's such areas of growth for us, because I think if that sort of healing doesn't get done and you're just leaving essentially open wounds or like lies to continue or that shame to grow or that guilt to grow.
And. I think that was a big thing that we, we like embrace those like awkward, ugly healing moments. I think after that, because we knew how beneficial it was going to be for our relationship long-term and I think, you know, I, I still don't have, [01:02:00] I'm still embarrassed if I have to like, have a little cry in front of you.
Right. But I mean, it's, it's something that has to happen. I think in right. I think 
Natalie: it's necessary if you can't be in that space with your spouse or with your partner, then who can you be in that space with exactly. Right. And how much harder it would have been for you both had you not been made aware.
Yeah. And you'd not been open and vulnerable about your past to begin with. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. Like I think knowing sort of what your, it sounds awful to say it like this, but knowing what you're getting into, I think is so important that it's like, That's how we were at the beginning. I mean, I don't think there was anything we didn't talk about and yes, we still had issues to work through, but for the core, for the core of who I was, as far as my experiences that I had had in previous relationships and the kind of childhood that I had, uh, it really was important for us [01:03:00] to communicate that with each other, just so that we had, like, we were on level playing 
Jen: field.
Right? 
Bryan: Yeah. When and do even, even like we wanted, we always like to leave with the practical and I think you guys have just like pretty much nailed other, other 29 podcast episodes. That we've wow. First thing I think, I think is take responsibility for your actions. Yeah. You've talked about that. The other thing you've talked about is you communicate about everything.
Be open, be vulnerable, be real. The other one that you said to set boundaries with each other like healthy boundaries. Right. And then the fourth thing that I got out of this. Is make space, make space for each other. Yeah. And don't react to the reaction. I thought that was really cool that he said like, don't react to the reaction, like, cause you're you, I love how you use, like she told me and then I could have just blown up.
Jen: Yeah. A lot of our conversations are like, what could have happened if we weren't. In a situation where that's why we haven't 
Ben: got to like fight because [01:04:00] she'll start going. I'm like, something's wrong, right? Yeah. Yeah. I'm just like red alert. Yeah. It sounds dumb. But like, you get mad at me cause I'm just staring at you blankly.
But in my head, I'm like, this is how I would say something right now. This is what I would say here right now. Right. And I'm like, it's making space. Yeah. But you, you have to, because if I was to say something that this would escalate and you were in 
Bryan: control of what you 
Ben: say. Yeah. It's so hard to do, but like it's like typing that Facebook post and then deleting it for posting it.
Right. That's playing out in your head. Yeah. So that's playing out in my head while this stuff's going on. And then I'm trying to like, cause that happens for a bit and then I'm like, wow. Okay. I need to, so that tunes me in, cause I'm realizing how I'm seeing this escalate here and then I'm listening. I'm like, okay.
Dial it in, what's the route what's going on here? What is she talking about? And then I'm now looking at it differently because you can't have a positive and negative in your brain at the same time. So if you get triggered to negative, You can't get something positive. Like we're going to have a [01:05:00] great fight, right?
Jen: That's right. 
Ben: That's right. Flip switches. Nobody wants to have a fight. Like nobody wants to be misunderstood. So 
Jen: when 
Natalie: you have a situation like that, or, you know, you had told us the whole thing of the olives story, um, could you just explain that whole idea of that self-talk that you have that w um, Well, I guess, recalibrating that does this line up with his character?
Yeah. 
Jen: So the olives story. Um, okay, so this happened in about a week or so ago and. I was coming out into the kitchen and he had dropped the olives on the floor and it had made a mess and I kind of came into the kitchen and he goes, okay. Well, I think I was, I was like, what's going on or something? It like triggered me.
Cause he was around, he was grunting about something. [01:06:00] So I was like, what's going on? And he's like, well, somebody put the olives on the top. And 
Ben: like, no, I said, somebody put the olives in a stupid 
Jen: place. That was it. Yeah. Somebody put the olives in a stupid place. So 
Ben: me and my head I'm. Down bashing Ben for Ben stupid choice.
He's cleaning up, knock these over and make a mess. And so me saying that now, all of a sudden Jen's like, 
Jen: Well, because guess who put all olives on the top shelf? It was me. So I'm thinking like, yeah, you just called me stupid to my face. Like yeah. What? And so I had to like walk away a little bit, cause I was pretty fired up because I'm like, that's ballsy, like you circle back and you're like, Hey, wait a second.
And then I did, I had to like go and I was like, he's never said that before. Like he couldn't have like meant that. And then like, I think I said, I was like, Did you call me stupid or something? Like, did 
Ben: you, what was my reaction though? 
Jen: And I don't even remember what you was like mad at you. 
[01:07:00] Ben: Like what you reacted to the reaction.
I have time to do that. I was making stupid choices in here at the fridge. 
Jen: I'm like, well, clearly it was me who put the, all of us there and he's like, well, I thought I put the olives there. That's why I said someone put them in a stupid place. And I thought, ah,
Ben: That small choice to circle back and then questions line up with that character, or like, wait a second. 
Jen: Let's just like 
Ben: look full right. To do that anytime. 
Jen: Thank you. And I think that we do exercise this. Yeah, that's awesome. I had to think like, okay, well there's no way that he would talk to me. Like he's never said anything like that.
Yeah. I think if that 
Ben: played out and you came back at me reacting from what you just heard, whether it was that you or. I kind of got been ugly quick, cause I'm already triggered and like, And you 
Jen: were, and you were just like, you were just upset because you were hungry and now you're cleaning up [01:08:00] all of this off the floor and I'm coming in going like what you do like so I can see why.
Yeah, it was really, it could have been very easily misunderstood. 
Bryan: That this is a universal sign for we're going to slow down. 
Jen: Oh, I didn't know 
Natalie: that. Well that's cause you 
Ben: learned, you learned it. You learned 
Bryan: it right now so
we can cut that part out easily. You guys have like legitimately touched on so many good topics we'll zoning in on just why it's so important to be real and why it's so important to be raw and vulnerable. I think, um, There's a healthy way to approach these things. And I think you guys have talked about how to, you have talked about how to healthily do these things.
I'm sure there's well, there's lots of times where you just don't respond the way you want to and things didn't go the way, [01:09:00] you know, it's like, I love how you say this. Uh, now I have to act on the healing that I'm in. So now I have to actually go ahead and yes, I've been healed. And then when it comes in contact with someone.
Are you really, 
Ben: are you actually going to say your field and then run away from the battlefield? 
Jen: Have to face it? Yeah, that's right. It's like, are you going to actually deal with it in the mid century? Right. 
Bryan: Yeah. And so, man, this is so good. I really appreciate you guys coming on and just sharing so raw and just about your relationship and about how you approach being 
Jen: married.
Yeah. Thank you so much for having us on. We appreciate it. 
Bryan: We'll definitely have you back. Yeah, we listen. Absolutely. So if you liked this podcast, please, it means a lot when you share, when you let people know about it, you can follow us on Instagram and on Facebook. If there is a topic or a question or anything that you would like to discuss even of this pod, guests, something you disagree with.
Or just one that maybe have a little bit of clarity on you can email [01:10:00] us@amplifiedmarriageatgmail.com. We'd love to hear from you. And as you hear us say at the end of every one of these episodes, we believe that marriage can we reset refreshed, 
Ben: recharged, and restored. 
Natalie: Thanks so much for joining us. Talk to you soon.